How Infantile!
Full disclosure: I am not a breeder. I watch my good friends hitting that baby-making age and watch with some fascination and trepidation. Babies everywhere! But this was an enlightening experience.
My good friends Kes and Aileen recently had a daughter, who is now eight weeks old. This past weekend, I suddenly understood what parents mean when they bemoan the lack of family-friendly places.
Kes and a group of friends (including my husband) decided to hit the International BrewFest in the North Park Blocks. Surely, the OLCC wouldn’t find an eight-week-old infant in a stroller concerning.
Not a chance. No minors, no kids, no teensy weensy babies. Turned away. So, undaunted, the group decided to hit someplace in the Pearl with outdoor seating and make their own brewfest.
Except, as they rolled the stroller from place to place, they kept getting the same uncomfortable, terse head shake or regretful refusal. The group rolled around for nigh an hour without being able to find a single outdoor eatery that would deign to let them hang out with an infant next to them.
Perhaps I am saddened by this because I personally know that the baby is at the age that she is not going to bug anyone (no running around or squealing or making messes–she’s too young for that), and certainly too young to get slaughtered and go all Spring Break at the brewfest.
Is this just me having sympathy with my good friends and their new daughter, or is this what parents all around this good town are up against? Or is it just the Pearl? And what the heck is the deal with the OLCC, in general? They make me grumpy.
It’s definitely the Pearl. All things being equal, some places are just better for wee-ones than others. You can always hit Laurelwood, where the beer is decent, the food is bland, and the atmosphere literally screams children. At times, it’s a reasonable alternative. I’ve also had good child-friendly experiences at Sushi joints and McMenamins, though this latter option is more of a gamble as you end up waiting far longer than any other establishment on the planet.
This being said, having a two-year and four-year old, I feel that the best way to deal with this is simply to stay home and drink on the porch. I do this wearing nothing but boxers and a coffee-stained wife-beater, smartly accessorized with a natty, half-chewed cigar and 12-gauge shotgun.
Screw the Pearl and Savor the Oyster!
It’s definitely more family-friendly in the suburbs. Probably because there aren’t enough childfree folks with high enough incomes to support businesses that exclude kids.
My local brewpub, the Old Market Pub, is always full of kids. And I can think of three restaurants (Seasons and Regions, Hall Street Grill, and Gustav’s) that actually have children’s menus with delicious choices on them, instead of the standard hot dogs and Mac’n'cheese.
I guess my (perhaps “pipe”) dream is places that are both urbane AND down with the occasional kid. My mom was a restaurant reviewer when my sister and I were little, so I am probably especially indignant about “good” restaurants hating on the shorties.
I wish it didn’t have to be a black-and-white swank-versus-screaming-chaos-family-nightmare situation. I find “Family-oriented” restaurants mostly to be fairly intolerable–probably because:
1) all kid-having parents are unfortunately forced to go there and
2) focus on family friendliness seems to remove focus on other things that I find essential in a restaurant: food, service, ambiance.
Seems like the two don’t have to be mutually exclusive (kids and good eats) but it’s complex, isn’t it?
I’d add one more complexity to the mix: parents who don’t want to/fail to supervise their children in public.
Unfortunately, the mess they leave behind (both literally and figuratively) means that restaurant owners and child-free patrons both cringe when reasonable parents with well-behaved children walk through the door.
I can also say this (now that my own kids are older, heh) - there are some places where one ought not to try and bring a small child. Even if *your* small child will be the one in a million child to cause No Problems At All.
I agree with Betsy. How many times do you hear a parent say “They never act up.” The point is, kids are kids and sometimes kids need to be allowed to act like kids. That’s cool. Just don’t do it at the brewfest or the local bar. Not the right place to bring kids. sorry, my opinion as a kid free parent.
again, the answer is simple:
1) porch
2) liquor
3) stained wife-beater
4) natty cigar
5) 12-gauge shotgun
6) ankle-biters playing with pit-bull in the weed patch
screw the pearl, savor the oyster!
We actually ended up following Jeremy’s advice, more or less. Back porch, presiding over the dirt yard, forties in hand. A little chilly for wife beaters, but otherwise a perfect alternative to paying $20 to stand in line for beer at the festival.
Jeremy, where’s the oyster?
Mmmmm….oysters.
What say ye:
* Mignonette sauce OR
* Barbecued
?
Holy man I love oysters.
Breaded and pan fried. Served on corn tortillas with a good salsa and some shredded cabbage.
I’m cooking up a dozen tonight.
I really don’t see why you’d want to bring children to a bar anyway. I guess because I’m from the east coast, my opinion is skewed, and its tough to define ‘bar’, as just about everywhere in Portland serves liquor. I have been to the new Deschutes, and it seems very kid friendly, much to my dismay. That’s why I’ll stick with Rogue, better beers anyway.
Also, no matter how cute they are, no one wants to hear you kid scream. Yes, I’m telling you to stay home.
kinda bummed to see betsy’s comment and deiselboi’s agreement. wow, i have 2 kids and let me tell you traveling in europe and in south america was an eye opening experience towards a *cultural* difference in understanding about children. “a bar is no place for a kid” turns out to be a very american (and narrow) point of view. i was actually shocked at how welcoming the stereotypically standoffish parisians were to our daughter when we were there.
its one thing to bemoan the absolutely draconian olcc rules (we all know about that, how stupid is it my kids cant sit and eat a bratwurst with me at amnesia?), but to hear some theoretically like-minded internet folks say things like brewfests are not places to bring kids and the bad-apple kids make patrons cringe when even a “well-behaved” child shows up? yow…. truly portland has a ways to go.
(p.s. i know these comments were listed as personal opinion, etc, but yknow… it takes a village… haha)
(p.p.s. thanks for the original post, which is dead on.)
xb, five years ago, I would have really gotten mad at my own comment, too - I’d have either railed at the ‘you kids get off my lawn!’ mentality or chalked it up to some internet crank & walked away.
But over the years, I’ve seen *way* too many permissive parents and *way* too many overindulged and/or unrestrained kids in places they can’t be enjoying (the kids, that is - it’s all too clear that the parents put their own good times first and foremost.)
Yeah, I get angry - but not at the restaurant owners who give me the evil eye when I bring my own kids in (or did, when they were littler.) And I can’t much fault the non-parents who don’t much want to listen to my kid whine (hell, I don’t want to listen to my kid whine…!)
Instead, I get annoyed at the two couples sitting next to me at dinner last Saturday night, both with unsteady toddlers who clearly did NOT want to be there (squirming, crying, refusals to be constrained in a toddler seat, etc.) The restaurant staff and owners went out of their way (with a full house, no less) to accommodate these two couples - slicing up fruit (brought from outside the restaurant) for them, bringing glasses of ice, plates to spoon yogurt on, etc.
When the parents set the kids loose to toddle around the table rather than keep them restrained, well - I watched two near toddler/waitress collisions in the space of three minutes.
Meanwhile, the mostly oblivious parents proceeded to order appetizers and then full meals for themselves.
Unfortunately, those parents are the rule, rather than the exception. At least at the places I end up at in PDX, anyway!
I don’t understand the desire to allow kids everywhere. Why can’t adults have a few places of their own?
Last time I checked, the constitution does not say that you have the right to bring your baby to a bar where people are (legally) drinking and smoking.
Go to a friggin play ground or don’t have kids.
I think that the organizers of the Portland International Brewfest made the right call - 100%. The space was already cramped as it is - there was absolutely no room for strollers. Besides, I can’t imagine kids having that much fun watching their parents sit at a table drinking beer.
I also agree with Betsy. There are way too many parents in Portland who let their kids run wild at pubs/dining establishments (on a visit to the SE Lucky Lab not too long ago, I was greeted by a kid literally pounding on the decorative piano while his parents sat at their table on the other side of the bar and did nothing). I’ve also heard horror stories of kids getting in the way of servers, doorways, etc. while their parents assumed that there was no need to watch their child at all times.
Sorry, but a brewfest really ISN’T a place for your kid.
@Betsy Richter - thanks for the comment, and for clarifying. i totally understand — i too believe there is a responsibility on the parents in cultures that are more, um, socially tolerant(?) towards children. however, i am concerned about the attitude of a few bad apples spoiling it for the bunch. if there is intolerance, if not outright rejection, based upon a perceived characteristic of a class of people, not upon the individual cases themselves, isnt this the textbook definition of discrimination?
i get exasperated at behavior of many children, including my own, and certainly the behavior of parents of many children (including myself!), however, should this be reason enough for shunning them from participating in an activity such as eating at a restaurant?
i understand this is probably a bigger can of worms than should really be opened on a blog like this, but this is our portland we are talking about right? i am just a firm believer that ageism applies to both ends of the spectrum, and humans have a right to be who they are. and yes i felt this way long before i had kids. (please google youth liberation, or youth rights.)
as dieselboi so apply put it: “kids are kids”. however i disagree with the word “sometimes” in the rest of his statement: “and sometimes kids need to be allowed to act like kids.” kids always need to be allowed to act like kids, and they deserve that right.
as a thought exercise, try applying ernie’s last sentence to *any* other sub-group of society (old people, handicapped, ethnicity, religion, or make up your own) because they are being themselves, doing what they do: “Yes, I’m telling you to stay home.” it probably doesnt feel the same. try re-reading the entire thread but substituting the same.
No matter how cute your granny is, don’t bring her to a rave.
Also “kids being kids” is annoying to quite a few people. Bars are filled with people drinking alcohol - remember you aren’t even supposed to be drinking after one (for most folks), so why would you subject children to that?
I really don’t feel I’m in the wrong here. After all, I’m old enough to pay to be served liquor, and kids aren’t.
Is it fair? No. Is life fair? No.
btw, i started my comment before jmartens and foil posted their two (which now are above/before mine). classic examples of what i am talking about. outright intolerance and close-mindedness. jmarten says: “Go to a friggin play ground or don’t have kids.” i sure hope this isnt *really* representative of my pdx. as for the comment “Last time I checked, the constitution does not say that you have the right to bring your baby to a bar where people are (legally) drinking and smoking.” — this is so absurd that i dont think it really deserves a response, but if someone has some information about my children not having rights under the laws of the land, please let me know.
and finally, this remark is a sure way to get on the wrong side of just about any parent: “Sorry, but a brewfest really ISN’T a place for your kid.” yes, you tell me how to raise my child and where they should or shouldnt be.
am i really this naive in thinking portland was a decent place to raise a child?
@ernie - i dont even know how to begin to reply to this! dont bring my granny to a rave? f*** that! i would hope she would go it she wanted to.
and i dont know that someone was talking about taking kids to a bar at 1am? is that what you are even talking about? we were talking about the brewfest. i brought up amnesia brewery. maybe i am talking about 1pm.
“Is it fair? No. Is life fair? No.”
um. okay, i am baffled there. i guess you cant argue for tolerance against logic like that.
@xb - You think not wanting kids in bars is unreasonable? There’s a vocal contingent in this town that doesn’t think children should be allowed in art museums:
http://portland.metblogs.com/2007/02/25/now-showing-treasures-of-ancient-eqypt/
@xb - Honestly, this is the kind of entitlement people are referring to when they discuss kids being in places they shouldn’t. “Don’t tell me how to raise my child” is the battle-cry of the entitled parent because you think your family is perfect and not like the rest. Meanwhile, they’re off raising hell for restaurant staff and other customers.
And xb, your attempt to bring age, race, or physical ability into this discussion doesn’t fly for many reasons, namely, having kids is a choice people make. If more parents chose to educate their kids on how to act in certain public situations, I’m sure most wouldn’t groan when they see a toddler coming on the premises.
@xb
“(p.s. i know these comments were listed as personal opinion, etc, but yknow… it takes a village… haha)”
“and finally, this remark is a sure way to get on the wrong side of just about any parent: “Sorry, but a brewfest really ISN’T a place for your kid.” yes, you tell me how to raise my child and where they should or shouldnt be.”
So which is it, does it take a village, or are we not telling you how to raise your child?
And as to your comment about your kids having rights, then why would someone who is under 18 have to be emancipated from his parents in order to make decisions about himself (that his/her parents disagree with)? What about all the kids who get their lockers searched in high school? They have rights, just not the same ones.
@dieselboi - my man, the oyster is what i refer to as ‘real portland’: you know, the portland that grew up organically… locally… as opposed to the pompous califacsimile known as ‘the pearl’. i say toss out the pearl and savor the oyster. it’s my own little metaphorical whimsy.
but hey, my take on the pearl is simply my opinion, just as all the opinions on this post are simply opinions. and you know what they say… opinions are like (insert crass term for outer sphincter); everyone has one and most of them stink.
I really dislike the term “breeder”
First, I rescind my use of the term “breeder.” I find it a relatively useless term myself, and only used it out of sloppiness.
This has been interesting. My original post was meant as a reverse-position (that is–I don’t have kids and often find screeching toddlers wearing on the nerves) view of a situation that I think can’t realistically be resolved to everyone’s happiness.
I’m somewhat surprised at how much vitriol this has unearthed. While I’m actually on the side of the folks who get peeved when kids run around, scream, trip over wait staff, etc., I think the issue is a symptom of a slightly different problem: that is, the inability of parents to raise well-behaved children (yes, I know, every kid is different, and some just can’t be calm and quiet) and use judgment when deciding where to go and when.
I should also clarify that I wouldn’t have suggested taking Kea (the infant in question here) to any of the places mentioned if she were in a querulous state of development. But fact is, she’s 8 weeks old. She never makes *any* noise; she mostly just sleeps and occasionally coos quietly. Which gets back to my notion that this is all about judgment, which too many parents are poor at.
Because parents have had a history (at least around here) of poor decision-making about their children in public places, it has created an atmosphere of general animosity, and the sense of a necessity for authority figures (owners of restaurants, the OLCC) to step in and do the decision making for them. It is THIS that I find to be dismaying.
I am not suggesting that it would be appropriate to bring a small child of any ilk to a full-on bar, as such. This was the middle of the day and the group was looking for a food/drink place to relax and enjoy the sun. Still, I was positing the post as a question: I’m not actually sure it *was* appropriate to try to bring the little girl with them. Mostly, I found it interesting as a change of perspective–our crowd is used to being able to go wherever sounds good at the moment. Parenthood is a significant change in reality. I find that interesting.
I find the invocation of the constitution a bit peculiar–with the exception of the Brewfest, we’re talking about private establishments so First Amendment assemblage freedoms aren’t really as relevant. If anything, one could use the freedom to assemble as an argument as to why one *should* have been able to take children to the Brewfest, as it was held (actually, correct me if I’m wrong) on public property. Yes, children are in fact covered by the constitution (don’t get me started on how much I think curfew laws are unconstitutional–that’s a whole other kettle of fish).
Long story short (too late), I don’t actually have an opinion here!
keeping a kid in a stroller out of a brewfest seems a little over the top, especially if it was being held in what is normally a public space or park.
i’ve got a two year old, and i don’t think i would take him to a brewfest, mostly because he would get in the way of my good time (or get trampled underfoot). i take him out to restaurants occasionally, but i watch him like a hawk and am very conscious of him disturbing other patrons or staff. if only more portland parents had this attitude. unfortunately, i have also seen many, many examples of parents confusing letting their child have fun with giving their child no rules or behavioral expectations. there are a lot of self-centered people in portland raising kids in a self-centered way.
BUT, that’s no reason to paint all of us with that broad brush. obviously, some establishments are clearly for an adult clientele and if you’re trying to take your kids to Higgins or Sel Gris or something, well i don’t really have a lot of sympathy for you. But people of PDX, please do not assume that all of us with kids are careless and bound to annoy you. in fact, open your heart and find some joy in the company of children. they can be frustrating if left to just run around unsupervised, but they are also one of the only sources of joy and genuine happiness in this crappy world. drop the hipster cool and try to genuinely welcome them to our public spaces and business whenever possible.
and if you see a parent who is lacking in the “being considerate of others” department, call them on it. to their face and in public. i have no qualms about telling a space cadet parent that their kid needs some social boundaries.
since we’re on the subject, i’d like it to be known that i dislike the term ‘camp’, mostly because it’s so often misunderstood.
according to the information superwideweb, when the term first appeared in 1909, it was used to refer to ostentatious, exaggerated, affected, theatrical, effeminate or homosexual behavior. by the mid-1970s, the term was defined as “banality, artifice, mediocrity, or ostentation so extreme as to have perversely sophisticated appeal.”
i hardly think that something that’s ‘campy’ is also inherently banal or mediocre at an extreme level. i mean really… camp can be technically brilliant and far from banal/mediocre, and thereby have sophisticated appeal that has nothing to do with perversity.
i think mark booth got closer to the mark with his book ‘camp’, where he defined camp as “to present oneself as being committed to the marginal with a commitment greater than the marginal merits.” i like that he focuses on the commitment to something as opposed to whether said commitment/focus is ‘extreme’. extremism does not necessarily translate to commitment. perhaps i’m just mincing words…
wait, what the hell are we talking about? nevermind… gotta step off the porch… daisy needs a scratchin’.
i am simply baffled by the arguments against kids being places. i literally mean i am baffled. there are so many places in the comments here i could *try* to focus on, but i will pick just one:
“And xb, your attempt to bring age, race, or physical ability into this discussion doesn’t fly for many reasons, namely, having kids is a choice people make.”
baffling. just baffling. are kids not people? are they not humans? did YOU have a choice to exist? does that even matter, in the context of what we are talking about?
all i can plainly say is that my children (and everyones, of course) are not only citizens, but they are people, human beings, individuals. and as such they are entitled the same rights as any human being, legally, but i had hoped we were talking beyond simple legal rights here and discussing social norms, tolerance, and learning to accept *people* who happen to be *different* than you.
and so i stand baffled that my fellow human beings would believe my children are not only second class citizens, but only truly a *choice* and therefore not afforded the same tolerance as other people, and should not have rights, the ability to make their own decisions, or indeed even privacy (lockers or otherwise).
i apologize for wasting your time here and i truly hope you can find the peace and quiet you need where you need it and never have to ask for tolerance for something that is just part of your very nature, or the privilege to participate in some public undertaking.
Yes, xb, your children are indeed people. But they are not appendages or extensions of you, either.
And that’s where the challenge comes in. *You* may want to attend the brewfest. But does your child? Really? I’m guessing it wouldn’t even be on his/her top ten list if asked.
Nevertheless, the kid gets schlepped off to the brewfest, because children Have Rights. Even though the kid probably wasn’t part of the decision making process here.
You could, of course, argue that your child wants to be where *you* are. And *you* want to be at the brewfest.
Okay, then. Go to the brewfest, and take your kid along. But let’s not wrap it in the larger mantle of children’s rights or assert that some of us may be treating your child as a second class citizen when we’re just reacting to the fact that it’s very very clear that your *own* child would rather be anywhere else but there…!
And that’s what my major beef with my dining neighbors was - it was very very clear that their kids Did Not Want To Be There.
Whose rights got trampled on, exactly…?
I’m quickly beginning to understand why this conversation baffles you, xb.
First off, legally your children are NOT entitled to the same rights as ANY human being. If you don’t believe me, send them out to buy a six pack or a pack of smokes. If you’re not convinced yet, try to have them register to vote or get a driver’s license. Does the fact that your kid can’t drive until he’s 16 show “intolerance” on the part of DMV? Are they treating your child like a second-class citizen?
Your attempts to portray your children’s “right” to go to a beer fest (a place where they only have the “right” to sit around and watch you drink beer - fun for them!) as some sort of civil rights struggle is ridiculous. Your argument that those who would like to be in the company of other adults at an event geared TO adults as some sort of intolerance akin to discrimination is equally ridiculous.
Let the bafflement continue…
the replies to this are baffling.
i mean awesome.
I agree porter, but I think we all can agree things would be best if everyone left their misbehaving children at home.
You people from the United States are weird.
A bar, a pub, a place with alcohol is a central place to see and interact with your community. Your community has children, like it or not.
SW Lucky Lab has been great for beer, food, kids, dogs…accepting of the -whole- community.
What are you, new? Have you never been to the pearl?
Wow, at the risk of jumping into the cage fight, I wanted to clarify a couple of items just in case this pops up in a search 5 years from now and people are wondering why I took my daughter to a strip club at such a young age.
The use case for BrewFest was: quick taste. Kea, the 8-week old strip club patron in question here, would have been Baby Bjorned (no stroller) so my “crowd footprint” wouldn’t be any larger than normal and my arms would be free to maneuver for drinking/protection. I probably could have smuggled her in under an overcoat. I didn’t envision the environment would be a rowdy crowd of belligerent drunks, I thought it would be a park full of people who wanted to sample some unique and different beers, and at BrewFest who could really afford to get that tanked anyway?
If Kea was anything more than tiny and comatose I wouldn’t have considered bringing her.
To the credit of the Pearl establishments, we were warmly welcomed in the restaurant portions, we simply declined due to the wait, the fact they weren’t outside, or because they required a full/long dining experience. We just wanted a quick pint in the sun.
I’m happy to report Kea successfully dined with us at Fenouil at 9pm on a Sunday in the restaurant portion, and has been outside at Fenouil (on the bar side during happy hour) both times without incident. Our plan when we dine out is to immediately remove her and take her outside if there is a meltdown, but so far we’ve been very lucky. All she does is sleep and look cute.
The best part about Fenouil is the proximity to Jamison Park: no one eating outside at Fenouil is immune to loud shrieking kids or dogs, because they’re surrounded by them anyway. I’d like to invite my good friend Jeremy TF and his kids there (it’s bike and streetcar friendly!) and see if maybe he might reconsider his anti-Pearl views after a few glasses
Finally, we’re starting to realize that some doors close for parents in certain situations, and that’s fine (it’s the price you pay for having kids, and hopefully it’s more than worth it.) We haven’t been able to see the new Batman flick yet, for example. Now, if Regal Cinemas served beer during movies we’d sneak her in tonight, instead of sneaking in our drinks (let the blog violence begin!)
Kes, I will gladly babysit your young daughter so that you and your wife can watch a movie!
Just let me know when I should come on by…
kester, may good man, i’m not one for fancy things like pearls, so i’ll leave that to the fancy folk. what’s more, my good overalls have a chili stain. that being said, i hear ya barkin’ on the batman front… you can catch me in the back of the regal lloyd cinemas one of these evenings, sippin’ boones from a converse sneaker while that ledger kid whoops some arse.
SAVOR THE OYSTER!
xb, I’m so glad you’re continuing to argue the case for kids. even though I have some children who, let’s be honest, should often not be taken anywhere (I suppose that’s my fault!), telling me that I need to stay home (’cept for playgrounds and Chuck E. Cheese and, of course, Laurelwood) for the entire duration of my struggle through parenthood is both crushing and isolating. while some days I don’t want to even take my children out into the front yard b/c they’re melting down, sometimes I can’t take my home any more or I long to be in the company of other human beings. and sometimes those human beings are in Places That Serve Beer.
I don’t believe it’s the environmental awfulness of American parents that makes our country different; it’s that taking one’s children with one everywhere is NOT the norm, and there is no cultural support for raising children to behave like respectable human beings in public. if children were taken everywhere with their parents, if parents didn’t have to choose between adult activities and children’s activities, it could be that everyone would make better choices, pay better attention, and more fully integrate their children into their lives. instead we’re stuck shuttling children around from one “safe” and uncontroversial activity to another, while we watch them on the daycare’s webcam or campcam from the security of our offices, where we’re working too much (i’m talking Americans average work hours here, not you all specifically!), so we can buy more stuff to keep our children from becoming stuck between the spokes in the life of the world.
I wish a lot of things for America — and always believe that Portland should be doing it first and better than the rest of the country — one of those things is that America paid more attention to its kids. segregating children and adults is one of the worsts thing our culture has done to itself. OLCC laws are only a reflection of our cultural belief that kids are icky, sticky, awkward and complicated “choices” that many people want to choose not to make.
it’s sad, a thousand times sad, that many people (and i’ve been in this conversation dozens of times, so it’s not just y’all) think we shouldn’t make the choice of children. children, as xb said, aren’t choices but biological fact. i only wish all children were valued as much as our ancestors valued their children. truly, these messy, loud, emotional children of mine are magical beings, and the more interaction you have with them, the more you might realize that you can benefit from them, too.
ignore ‘em, isolate ‘em, leave ‘em at home (unless you have some nice oysters and a cute pitbull to play with, naturally) and you’ll end up with some screwed up adults in 20 years.
i dont know if i should be excited to find sharon agreeing with me or devastated with sadness that she isnt american [though i am not surprised]… (but luckily she is in portland, anyway.)
foil –
whose judgement is it that something is suitable for my child? yours? the state of oregon? i am sure we would agree on many things (no, i am not taking my child to a strip bar or dive bar.) but if i want to go to a beer fest, and i have my child in tow, thats my prerogative. a better example, as i said above, is amnesia brewery. its *absurd* that i cant enter their outdoor patio with my kid and get us hot dogs. it also happens to be very convenient for people who dont want kids around them.
look, lets get one thing straight. if you dont like having kids around you, and you dont want to have kids around you, say that. dont try to hide behind laws about what is right or wrong for people. i am fine with that as being your opinion. but i would still disagree that this feeling of yours (or anyones) is an excuse to be intolerant of a subset of the community. i think that sort of bigotry (yes, look up the word) does have parallels to other forms of discrimination. no, perhaps not as “important” or devastating, but certainly analogous to it.
its an opinion (and often understandable one) to say you dont like kids, dont want kids around you, or dont want kids at an event or establishment you go to. it is discrimination, or at best, intolerant, to assume that opinion, regardless of how many people you believe share it with you, warrants excluding that person from the event or establishment.
kes and gisarah, thanks for some (in my little world) “sane” thoughts on the subject. gisarahs words in particular hit home… i dont have much more to say than that. i thought portland was so cutting edge about community — i find myself second-guessing after this thread. (part of the reason i have jumped in this adamantly. maybe i am trying hard to convince myself it still is?)
lets all hang out with our messy little people somewhere and see what trouble starts. though i am more a mussel person, the oyster theme isnt bad either.
@xb -
xb, it isn’t you’re PDX…it’s “OurPDX”!
So under your logic, kids should be allowed in strip clubs? A boy into the womens restroom?
While you are at it, are you going to say that the govt shouldn’t tell you your kids has to be in a seatbelt or you have to feed them now and then.
I am sorry, but demanding to bring your kid into a bar just screams trash.
It is honestly funny to me that people think that just because they had a kid and now feel that they have no life, the rest of the world should give it to their needs.
Then there are the folks that CHOOSE not to have children until they are READY to. It is a choice that any rational human being can make. Unfortunately, we are breeding a society that makes poor decisions, has kids when they are not ready, then expects the whole world to give in to their desires.
Face it…you had a kid, its time to stop going to the bars and be a parent!
It is discusions like these that make me so glad I have been smart enough to wait on starting a family until I can deal with being away from the bar for a few years.
Hey XB, can I pass you and your kid a brewsky and a smoke? Party on!
Oh my lord. Weeeeeee! This discussion has careened off into never-never land.
In *our* PDX (ahem) beer is a large part of the culture. No I don’t want to bring my toddler to a strip club and neither does any other sane parent. But do I enjoy hanging out at any one of the number of kid-friendly pubs and enjoy a beer and watch the kids play and socialize with other parents? Hell yeah I do. It’s one of the things I love about living here.
Peace out.
Wow, sometimes I wish I’d get more comments on my blog - but after reading this slugfest, I realized I’d have to quit my day job just to manage the blog comments.
Anyway, we find that most of the time we don’t want to take our kids into OLCC regulated areas. The language, the smoke, the atmosphere is not inline with the values we are choosing to raise our children.
However, there are times when one is invited by friends, or you stumble upon them, and you’d like to just sit and enjoy the company. But given the fact that our budget doesn’t allow for a lot of fine, or not so fine, dining, it’s rarely an issue for us.
A perfect example of what happens when you let kids in bars:
@Gary Walter - http://twitpic.com/56vx